Tonight, Faith & Reason hosts a focused livestream discussion between Paul Gee and Timothy R. Berman examining one of the central arguments raised against the Book of Mormon: the claim that Mosiah 18 contains biblical and historical contradictions.

The discussion will stream live directly on this page.

Watch the Livestream

Date: July 14, 2026
Time: 4:30 PM Pacific / 5:30 PM Mountain
Participants: Paul Gee and Timothy R. Berman
Topic: Baptism and the Church in Mosiah 18

The livestream video is embedded below. The broadcast will begin automatically when the event goes live.

What Is the Discussion About?

Mosiah 18 describes Alma preaching among the people of King Noah, baptizing believers in the Waters of Mormon, organizing a covenant community, appointing priests, and teaching the people to bear one another’s burdens.

Paul Gee has argued that this account contains serious problems because it places baptism, an organized church, and detailed knowledge of Jesus Christ in a period more than a century before the Savior’s birth.

Among the questions we will examine are:

• Did Joseph Smith construct Mosiah 18 by borrowing from Acts 2?
• Was baptism unknown before John the Baptist?
• Could an organized covenant community properly be called a “church” before Christ’s mortal ministry?
• Were ancient prophets capable of knowing details about the Messiah’s suffering, death, resurrection, and glory?
• Does Mosiah 18 genuinely contradict the Bible, or does it describe events that are not preserved in the biblical narrative?
• What is the difference between a contradiction, an anachronism, literary dependence, and insufficient historical evidence?

These questions deserve more than slogans, assumptions, or isolated proof texts. They require careful definitions, complete passages, historical context, and a willingness to represent opposing arguments fairly.

The Nature of the Discussion

This livestream is intended to be a structured Christian discussion rather than a hostile debate.

Paul will have the opportunity to explain his position and present his strongest evidence. I will summarize his argument to ensure that I have understood it correctly and then offer a point-by-point Latter-day Saint response.

Each participant will be allowed to clarify, challenge, and respond to the arguments presented. The conversation will remain centered on Mosiah 18 and the specific claims Paul has published concerning baptism and the Church before the birth of Christ.

The objective is not to generate outrage or produce a dramatic confrontation. The objective is to determine what the texts actually say and whether the conclusions being drawn are supported by the evidence.

The Central Distinction

A major issue in this discussion is the difference between four kinds of objections.

A contradiction occurs when two sources make mutually exclusive claims in the same sense. One says that something happened, while the other explicitly says it did not or could not happen.

An anachronism occurs when an institution, practice, word, or idea appears in a period before it historically existed.

Literary dependence is the claim that one author used another written source when composing a narrative.

An argument from insufficient evidence maintains that a claim has not been adequately supported by external historical or archaeological evidence.

These objections may overlap, but they are not interchangeable. A resemblance between Mosiah 18 and Acts 2 does not automatically prove copying. The absence of an event from the Bible does not necessarily mean the Bible prohibits that event. A disputed historical claim is not automatically a textual contradiction.

Tonight’s conversation will attempt to keep those categories clear.

Was There Baptism Before John the Baptist?

One of Paul’s principal arguments is that baptism did not exist before John the Baptist. Under this interpretation, Alma’s baptism of believers in approximately 145 B.C. would be historically impossible.

A responsible Latter-day Saint answer should not pretend that every ancient Jewish washing was identical to Christian baptism. Israelite purification washings, ritual immersion, John’s baptism, Alma’s covenant baptism, and post-Resurrection Christian baptism should not be carelessly collapsed into a single practice.

The more precise question is whether sacred washing and immersion were already part of the religious world of ancient Israel—and whether God could reveal a more explicit covenant ordinance to a particular prophetic community.

The biblical record’s first explicit description of John baptizing does not necessarily establish that no divinely authorized baptismal practice could have existed anywhere before him. That conclusion must be demonstrated rather than assumed.

Could There Be a Church Before Christ?

Paul also argues that the Church did not exist until the ministry of Jesus Christ. Mosiah 18’s description of Alma organizing a church would therefore appear to place a New Testament institution in a pre-Christian setting.

The New Covenant Church founded upon the death, resurrection, and apostolic witness of Jesus Christ is unquestionably unique. The community organized by Alma should not be presented as though it were historically identical in every respect to the Church following Pentecost.

However, Scripture also uses assembly or church language for God’s earlier covenant people. Acts 7:38 refers in the King James Version to Israel as “the church in the wilderness.” Other translations render the term as “assembly” or “congregation.”

This suggests that the word church can describe an organized covenant community without requiring every feature of the later apostolic Church to be present.

Mosiah 18 describes a gathered people who entered a covenant, received baptism, accepted religious instruction, cared for the poor, maintained unity, and organized themselves under claimed divine authority. The question is not merely whether the English word church appears before the New Testament period, but what kind of covenant community the passage describes.

Could Ancient Prophets Know About Christ?

Another major objection concerns Alma’s knowledge of Jesus Christ before the Savior’s birth.

Paul argues that people living around 145 B.C. could not have known detailed information about Christ’s redemptive mission. Yet the New Testament itself teaches that earlier prophets testified beforehand of the sufferings of Christ and the glory that would follow.

The Book of Mormon’s claim is not that every ancient person possessed a complete post-Resurrection understanding of Christian theology. Its claim is that specific prophets received unusually direct revelation about the coming Messiah.

A critic may reject the historical authenticity of those revelations. That remains a legitimate subject for discussion. But rejecting a prophetic claim is different from demonstrating that such foreknowledge is biblically impossible.

Respectful Participation

Viewers are invited to participate through the live chat.

Questions and thoughtful responses may be read during the broadcast as time permits. Please keep all comments focused on the subject and treat both participants respectfully.

Criticism is welcome.

Disagreement is welcome.

Questions about the biblical and historical evidence are welcome.

Personal attacks, insults, harassment, and judgments concerning another person’s motives or salvation are not welcome.

Truth does not require contempt, and Christian disagreement should not require distortion.

Join the Conversation

Watch the embedded livestream on this page beginning at:

4:30 PM Pacific / 5:30 PM Mountain on July 14, 2026.

After the discussion, share your perspective in the comments:

Did Mosiah 18 contradict the Bible?

Did Paul Gee demonstrate an anachronism?

Are the parallels between Mosiah 18 and Acts 2 evidence of literary dependence?

Or do the arguments depend primarily upon biblical silence and disputed historical assumptions?

Read the sources, listen to both sides, and reach your conclusion based upon the strongest evidence each participant presents.

Sources for the Discussion

Paul Gee’s chapter:
Book of Mormon Contradictions—Chapter 1: Baptism in the Church B.C.

Paul Gee’s article:
Book of Mormon Contradiction: Mosiah 18:16

Timothy R. Berman’s response:
Book of Mormon Contradictions? A Latter-day Saint Responds to Paul Gee on Baptism and Church in Mosiah 18

Closing Invitation

Faith & Reason exists to explore Scripture with clarity and courage while encouraging conversations grounded in evidence, charity, and Christian discipleship.

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